Heylo!!! It’s been quite a while since the last episode… and now, 2021 is certainly upon us. There’s much to update on, but first, here’s an episode of Loitering recorded about a month ago… that stems from this article by Ruchika Tulshyan and Jodi-Ann Burey I read a couple of months before that, about a phenomenon that might ring a bell to many listeners — 🔥 imposter syndrome🔥.
As you’ll hear, there are burning flames around this term for a reason. Enjoy! Also, please scroll ahead to the links below the transcript for some updates from me. :)
Sonia Paul 00:11
Hello, everyone, welcome to Loitering, the occasional but lovable traveling mini pod I am currently testing in newsletter format. And today I am loitering with two very special guests. Can you please introduce yourself?
Ruchika Tulshyan 00:27
Sure, I'm Ruchika Tulshyan, I'm a former journalist. And currently, I write about gender diversity and racial equity in the workplace for Harvard Business Review. I also run an inclusion strategy practice called Candour.
Jodi-Ann Burey 00:43
Hi, and I am Jodi-Ann Burey. I'm a speaker, writer, I call myself a disrupter because we have to do things differently if we want to achieve social change. I speak and write at the intersections of race, culture, and health equity. I also created and host the podcast Black Cancer, which is about the lives of people of color told through their cancer journeys. Also have a TED talk titled “The myth of bringing your full, authentic self to work,” where I really try to disrupt what we think of how racism shows up in the workplace.
Sonia Paul 01:16
Cool, thank you both so much for making the time to talk. And the two of you both co-authored an article recently for the Harvard Business Review, titled “Stop Telling Women They Have Imposter Syndrome.” And I was just wondering, you know, first of all, can we just define what do we mean when we say imposter syndrome? Because I also feel like it has become a catch-all term for a lot of different things that maybe have the same source, and how are you defining it?
Jodi-Ann Burey 01:47
So imposter syndrome is defined as not having an internal sense of success, despite probably having what other people might call success, right. So whether it's the degrees that you've had, the accolades that you've had, you know, whatever area in your professional life where you are, quote, unquote, high achieving, that sense of achievement isn't felt internally. So the short for that is having this feeling like you're a fraud, or a high level of self-doubt in your, you know, whatever your work environment is, or whatever the context is.
Ruchika Tulshyan 02:25
And while feelings of self-doubt, and largely, you know, this, this diagnosis of imposter syndrome can really impact anyone where they may be doubting their self-worth, or their abilities or their successes, it definitely is much more prevalent in women, in terms of the way the research has been done. And it is also sort of a syndrome that's really, you know, placed upon women. And so often women get diagnosed with imposter syndrome, we're invited to a lot of events, women's events, conferences, where women are essentially being taught how to overcome their imposter syndrome. So even though feelings of self-doubt and feeling like, you know, maybe you question whether you belong in a place, or whether you really are a fraud, those feelings might be fairly universal by gender and race, there is a very gendered aspect to how it shows up in our society.
Sonia Paul 03:23
Yeah, and, you know, something that I was just like, very curious about is just this notion of being a fraud, and how essential that is to the definition of imposter syndrome, because I think — I personally think, for example, that there is a lot of maybe the influence of humility in fueling imposter syndrome, just, you know, women who wouldn't boast about themselves, who do acknowledge that they are successful, but maybe not to the extent that they should, and others don't validate them. And so I'm just wondering if that is part of our definition of imposter syndrome, or if that's something else, and if the two of you reflected upon that?
Jodi-Ann Burey 04:13
Yeah, I think what's interesting here is even as Ruchika was speaking before, with the sense of diagnosing and syndrome and all these medical terms, all of this is done and people can't see this because it's a podcast, but "in quotations," right, diagnosing them with this quote, unquote, syndrome. You know, and so I think what we are trying to speak to in the article is around the structural environment within which women and folks of color and other people who experience marginalization or underrepresentation, what that environment is doing to create these feelings or heightened feelings of self-doubt, because, you know, Ruchika and I talk about this, having a healthy level of self-doubt is normal, but to the degree that gets talked about and is explained within this concept of imposter syndrome, or of what you're saying where women, people of color, folks have other identities are also socialized to try to downplay their work and their worth and their value in some way. And, you know, we can all give examples of men-identifying people in our lives who do not do that, who take up as much physical space as possible, who take as much energy as possible, to boast about the work that we're doing. And we value that. And so I think what you're speaking to of this downplaying, and this concept of imposter syndrome is linked, in that the racism and sexism that exists in our culture is what creates — I think they're both byproducts of what bias looks like, in these, you know, micro-moments of our lives, and also in the decision making in our workplaces.
Sonia Paul 05:57
Right. And what led the two of you to do this research together? Was there like a tipping point in our cultural conversation? Or was there some sort of emerging research that came out that really pushed you to go in this direction?
Ruchika Tulshyan 06:12
Yeah, I think that's a great question. And I actually wish there was research that we could cite, because for a few people who might have felt, you know, like, this article was, you know, did not speak to them, or it did not speak to their experience. We did hear from, you know, we heard from some white women, we heard from some men who said, you know, I experienced imposter syndrome to when it's really unfair, or like this doesn't apply, you're talking about just women or women of color. But that's not been my experience as a non-woman or a non-person of color. And sometimes I wish there was research to, to say that, you know, there's a direct link between this very specific phenomenon of feeling imposter syndrome, and how that relates to experiencing sexism and racism in the workplace. The reality is, the link exists. And I think for any of us, or anyone we've spoken to about this topic, even some of the experts that we interviewed, there is definitely a link that I think the academic research needs to catch up to, in all honesty.
But I think the tipping point, if I really think about it, is indeed, Jodi-Ann and I often would talk about how we're invited to these events, or how we were expected to sort of address — both of us are professional speakers too — and often we would be asked to address this topic of, how do you overcome self-doubt? How do you overcome imposter syndrome? Or on the converse, how do you be more confident as a woman? And it was really grating against us, because I think both of us connected over the fact that we don't really identify with this term. And yet, we're supposed to keep addressing it in the various audiences, among the various especially female-identifying audiences we were supposed to talk to, or that conferences we were supposed to attend. And it was really grating at us, because what was a common experience that we both had, was experiencing sexism and racism in the workplace as women of color. And we really talked about how many of our feelings of not belonging or questioning ourselves were far more linked to those experiences of facing exclusion and bias, rather than this innate feeling that we were lacking, or that we were frauds or there was something in us that prevented us from reaching our full potential in the workplace.
Sonia Paul 08:32
Right. I mean, I also very much feel like that, too. I mean, that was one of the things that spoke to me about this article is that I think sometimes I ask people for advice, and I hear "imposter syndrome." And it seems like it's the right thing to describe, but maybe not, actually, like… And so uh. Well first of all, before we get into further questioning, can we like preface the study that first cultivated the use of this term? And actually how it was described as a phenomenon before syndrome? What was that study? When did it come out? And what should we know about the context to help us understand maybe some of the nuances behind what they were describing as this imposter phenomenon among women?
Jodi-Ann Burey 09:23
Yeah, I think that distinction between imposter phenomenon and imposter syndrome is really important, because we have the original study, and I want people to know that it is readily available online, you can read it just a couple pages long. And really understand kind of how this concept was birthed — it's one thing to have a study, and then how it's popularized and transformed at some point in our culture into a syndrome. I think that's the thing that we like to do to women, which is create medical diagnoses for the things that are happening in our lives.
What I'll say about the original study of what struck me about the study when I first read it, you know, a couple of years ago was it just felt so outside of how I heard people actually talking about it. So the way people understood the term and what was being described felt a bit distant.
Sonia Paul 10:14
So what was being described in the study, actually?
Jodi-Ann Burey 10:18
So, what struck me about the study is that it's a very small sample. I think it's maybe 200 participants. The greater majority of them are white, the greater majority of them were of upper middle class, upper-class echelons of our society, a lot of them were sourced from the university, as a lot of studies are. But what was also striking about that, too, is that because the authors are psychologists, a third of the participants, I think, were already in therapy sessions with them, or some type of group work with them. And so once I saw the sample, and how what they're experiencing were being described in this article — our culture has kind of generalized data that isn't generalizable. The sample is too small, it's too narrow. And the omission of women of color, the omission of other ways to understand "high achieving," right. So I think people understand high achieving as greater access to white and male spaces. And so if I'm in an environment that is more male and more white, I am successful. But people who have professions that are in female-dominated environments, and so I don't think there were any nurses, for example, that were a part of the study. They are also high-achieving in their industry or, you know, professions that are dominated by folks of color, right. Other communities were not part of that study. And so I think that resonated for me as to why the concept of imposter syndrome didn't make sense in my life.
Sonia Paul 12:00
Yeah. And I think also, one thing that I've been trying to figure out is that imposter syndrome as we discuss it today is often in white-collar professions. Can imposter syndrome exists for people who work like working-class jobs? Because they can be high achieving, too. And how should we think about that?
Ruchika Tulshyan 12:20
That's a great question, and I do really have to say that even the shifts come, you know, within me. I grew up outside the United States, that was a very clear sort of division between people who would have working-class jobs, and many of my family, and especially, you know, my ancestors did. And then there was this sort of belief that, hey, if you could cross that line, and if you can get access to, you know, a job or a profession where there are more white people and more men, that's actually the definition of success for you. Now, one of the challenges to that is, firstly, that's just, it's unfair, and it's untrue. Because at the end of the day, if you are a person of color, and if you are, for example, a woman like me, who grew up not, you know, seeing women like me in the workplace. You know, largely women in my family, and even in my friend circle growing up, were stay at home mothers, for example. So for someone like me when I entered the workplace with this, you know, sort of belief that oh, wow, I've you know, I've transcended sort of the opportunities I saw, I blazed a new path, I blazed a new trail, and then coming into the workforce and seeing and facing, you know, again, erasure of sexism, racism, you know, bias — really did remind me that actually, those feelings of not belonging and us focusing too heavily on, you know, white-collar workplaces, you know, and that as the definition of success, rather than, where can we create places and careers and opportunities where everyone feels welcome and where they thrive. Shouldn't that be our definition of a successful workplace? That really came to bear the more work I started to do around workplace inclusion and equity.
Sonia Paul 14:08
Right. And one thing that I want to also bring up as we get more into these nuances is just even the term “women of color.” I mean, I noticed in the article that there are a couple of places where you also talk about how it's a flattening term, maybe the same way we say POC, person of color. There's a reason why another term, BIPOC, has emerged. And you know, there's the influence of class within all of that. And I'm just wondering, to what extent is women of color an appropriate term to talk about all the various experiences that could be classified for the different experiences that women of various backgrounds could have? And I wonder how much negotiation went into that even as you were writing this article, too, since we're unpacking that here, but, you know, I know personally as a journalist, sometimes, for example, there's only so much I could say about some of these nuances within an article.
Ruchika Tulshyan 15:08
I can't wait for your response Jodi-Ann, because I feel like, have you and I even really talked about this in detail? Probably not. So this is, I don't know, I feel like this is a great time.
Jodi-Ann Burey 15:19
Yeah, no, this will be, this will be good. I think one thing I'll say is, in our email exchanges, as the article was being edited, we had some conversations about this. And so one of my major pet peeves when we talk about, you know, issues that are quote-unquote, women-focused, what we see is that when we talk about women of color, our experiences — when you talk about flattening, it only can exist as a parenthetical mention. So, you know, such and such and such women, comma, especially women of color, period, right. Or, you know, such and such, and such women, parentheses, even more for women of color, close parentheses. And what was really important to me, and I think we got into this when we were doing our edits on it, is that I did not want that. I wanted to center women of color. We think about imposter syndrome as a women's issue. And often in our culture, because of the legacy of the feminist movement, we have erased women of color in that, and women become synonymous with white women. And then comma, women of color. And so with this article, I thought it was a really great opportunity to write about a women's issue that actually centers women of color, and then white women, or what have you can extract what they can from it. We're also still talking about white women, we're talking about these, but we're centering women of color in that.
When I think about the terminology women of color, people of color, I think we need to expand the possibilities for "both and." And so as a Black woman, as a Black, Jamaican immigrant woman in the United States, I have a very unique experience. And that's also a very small community. We're all part of small communities. When I think about myself, when I get to declare myself as a woman of color, a person of color, that magnifies my people power. That means I have Ruchika with me, I have Sonia with me, I had whoever with me in that. And so I think that as a political designation, it's really critical to gather our people, to understand that we have a linked fate of racial marginalization and bias. And there are ways that we need to unite under that in order to get the things that we need and to create racial equity. And also, Black women, you know, Jamaican women, Indigenous women, South Asian women, you know, Latinx women, whatever, right. Then we can start teasing out our own experiences as smaller communities for the things that we need. And we need to understand that, you know, as Ruchika talks about her experience growing up outside of the United States, I can give space for that difference. And I can get excited about the differences in our experiences. And also, when it comes time, she and I are on the same page as women of color, who are advocating for the space that we need to seek, you know, racial equity within our life experiences.
Ruchika Tulshyan 18:32
So well said, I'm like, how do I add to that? I think everything you said is absolutely spot on. I get very worried about any movements trying to remove the terminology, women of color. It is deeply, deeply resonant with my experience. And I think I worry the most when I hear Asian women, especially Indian women, especially, you know, high socioeconomic and highly-educated Asian women saying things like, oh well, I don't identify with this term. And you know, I'm just a woman. And yeah, I've had, you know, experiences that other women and really what they mean in that moment is white women have in the workplace, but my race has not impacted my experience. And I get really worried when I hear that, right, because that's really living in the cloud, under the cloud of white supremacy that's giving in to anti-Blackness and actually perpetuating it. And so I think our liberation is uniquely tied in each of us recognizing the experiences that non-white women which is a term I don't use very often, but if you are a non-white woman, you are going to have specific experiences related to the intersection of your race and gender. I mean, when Dr. Kimberly Crenshaw in 1989 talked about intersectionality, she was centering Black women, but it always pains me when non-Black women of color talk about how their race does not impact their workplace experience. Because I think that's just disingenuous. And it actually further marginalizes especially Black women.
Sonia Paul 20:10
Yeah, can I ask that like, how often are you hearing that kind of pushback or feedback that people who would identify as women of color actually don't attach themselves to this term that is a political term for collective liberation?
Jodi-Ann Burey 20:27
If you want to see it, you can find it. The internet is a vast place, you can tailor your community, right. And so in my community of my social networks, in my in real-life networks, I don't see a lot of that. Every once in a while, as my internet footprint increases, I'm starting to see a little bit more pushback against BIPOC, pushback against people of color, women of color, because of what's been happening in the racial reckoning in the wake of George Floyd's murder, is that there has been an insistent push on the experiences that Black people are facing in the United States. And with you know, COVID-19, and the anti-Asian racism that's been coming up and the increased violence against Asian people, particularly Asian elders, then there's been another conversation about the experiences that Asian folks are having in the United States. And that gets teased down to different communities as well. And so I think that people are finding space to talk about the unique experiences that they're facing. And when they see concepts, when they see terminology, people of color, women of color, they experience an erasure in that. And I think we need to have that conversation. And I think that goes back to the "both-and" conversation of how do we use these terms strategically. As a political designation, it gets used sometimes, right? I identify myself as a Black person sometimes. And in some spaces, I increase, you know, the importance and the salience of my Jamaican-ness, right. They're all still a part of me. But I can leverage my identities in different spaces for different goals. And so I think that seeing that as a political designation is important. And also finding space to talk about the uniqueness of your own experiences. I think our culture is having a very public conversation about that right now. And sometimes those like, big public conversation is like a in-community conversation that we need to discuss, right. So that can make it a little bit challenging.
Sonia Paul 22:37
Yeah, I definitely hear you about all of this. One of the things that I was curious about, though, is when your article came out, it both seemed obvious, and kind of like, "it's about time," but also, like, from your social media profiles, I also gathered that people weren't necessarily responding the way you hoped. And I was just wondering if you could just discuss what it was like for the two of you when this article came out, and whether it met your expectations.
Ruchika Tulshyan 23:12
I mean, I would say that it far, far superseded my expectations. I mean, firstly, I'm a former journalist, and then I've been writing for Harvard Business Review for a better part of two years, nearly three years, by the time this article came out. And this is the first time I had that level of response, which — you know, when I was talking about it with my partner, he said, this is proof that if you want to go fast, walk alone, if you want to go far, you know, walk together. So, you know, he loved the article as well. And I think that collaboration just, just absolutely blew it out of the water. And just the feedback we got was just phenomenal. And actually, maybe the little bit of, you know, what you caught, Sonia, on, online might have been, you know, those off days where we're like, oh, I can't believe this happened or like, can't believe you know, troll got to us today, or like some silly person said whatever.
But by and large, the level of feedback was actually incredible. You know, so many women and even men, but especially women of color, wrote to us and said this changed their lives, it changed their relationship to this framing. It liberated them. I mean, some of the feedback we got was just, I mean, I think it'll stay with me for the rest of my life. So, for me, I'd say that it was life-changing for me as well. It was life-changing to collaborate with someone, you know, as brilliant as Jodi-Ann, and learn from Jodi-Ann's framing and work as well. And I'm honestly honored that we got to be part of this conversation and lead it. And now it has led to so many other micro conversations happening. I think Jodi-Ann and I will text each other like, "Hey, did you see this person is going to be talking about imposter syndrome. They're going to use our article as their framing, and they're going to have it in their own community." And that just, that's incredibly flattering and exciting, I would say.
Jodi-Ann Burey 25:05
Absolutely. I think this article has been both transformative for people, and also generative and be able to create things that maybe wouldn't exist before, right. Articles, conversations. You know, there's a group of — an alumni network, where folks were sharing that article around and talking about ways that they're going to advocate for pay equity, and looking at the structures of their workplaces differently because of the nudge from this article. And so, again, to collaborate with Ruchika on this and kind of mash our perspectives on this and create this thing has just been an absolute honor and a really, really transformative and overwhelming experience. Absolutely. I think it's hard to express that in like a tweet or on Instagram, because the depth of feedback that we've received from people has been, you know, very personal and deep. And it's those types of special moments that we get to have with our readers that don't necessarily get reposted or re-shared on Instagram.
Sonia Paul 26:10
Yeah, I guess also, another thing I was curious by was whether, or how would you weigh the response from, like individual women versus actual institutions? Like is the change seeming to come from the individual worker level, or from the institutional level when the source is the institution and the systems around that?
Ruchika Tulshyan 26:36
I want to go really quickly, but Jodi-Ann, I'd love your thoughts on this.
Overwhelmingly, the feedback we've gotten and the invitation to expand our views and to talk about how this article came about, and what is our advice on moving forward, has overwhelmingly come from women of color. And I think that's important, because the feedback and the, you know, "Oh, this article is amazing. Have you read it, let me share it, let me link to it in my newsletter, let me refer to it in my meeting," has come from people of all genders and all races, and a lot of white women too. But the invitation to take it beyond the page and to really discuss it in a meaningful way, in a way to apply our work. Certainly, you know, as both of us as professional speakers, those who have come up and said, we'll absolutely pay your speaker fee for you to share your knowledge with us. That level of support, empowerment, and uplifting has single-handedly come from women of color. And I think that's something that I want to highlight, because I don't think that gets said nearly enough in the work we do.
Jodi-Ann Burey 27:47
Absolutely. I don't know if I have anything to add, really. What I will say is that when we talk about hearing from institutions — institutions are run by people, right. And so the folks who have, as Ruchika said, invited us to expand beyond the page are individuals from, you know, pretty large global companies, who are creating spaces within that environment to have more nuanced conversations and to try to shift the culture in some way. You know, have we heard from CEOs of these spaces, right, like white men who want to expand on this idea within their companies? No. And I think the question is there of what do leaders, what do white men gain from having women doubt themselves every day? And in our culture, and in many cultures around the world, ideas have gotten people killed, right. Like, ideas are dangerous, ideas are transformative. And when you spread ideas, if that can mean that you have to give something up in some way, that can feel really difficult to invite in. And so, you know, I just want folks to reflect on — if you gain in any way from someone else doubting their own success or their own abilities, that's something you need to sit with, and really think about what it is that you gain, and if that aligns with your values. If it doesn't, then you have to do something about it. And if it does align with your values, then brace yourself, because there are going to be people who are going to be knocking at your door to shift those values because you know, our world is definitely changing.
Sonia Paul 29:39
Was there anything that you really wanted to include in that article that you weren't able to for some reason or another?
Jodi-Ann Burey 29:49
I mean, what do you think, Ruchika, I mean, when we first wrote the article, it was what, 4000 words?
Sonia Paul 29:55
And also like, when did you first start like doing this writing together?
Ruchika Tulshyan 30:02
Oh my gosh, should we tell her the story? There's a, there's a fun story behind how this all came about.
Jodi-Ann Burey 30:08
Yes, please do, you go for it.
Ruchika Tulshyan 30:10
Yeah, I mean, I, you know, I'm a contributor to HBR. So I pitched the article to my editor, didn't think much of it. I was like, this is something I care deeply about, can I just write it? And she's like, yes, sure. So I started working on it, it felt like something was missing. And I think part of it is also — it just speaks to the way last year was. The pandemic, 2020, right. I was isolated, I didn't really meet many people, the only people I literally saw was my, at that time, three year old son, and my partner, and that's literally it, like, was not seeing anyone else in person. And it was just, it was one of those moments where I was writing this article that I felt very deeply about. And it felt like something was missing. Because these are the types of conversations you need to have in community. You need to have it with other women of color, with friends, with people who you admire, people who you want to be. Like, that's where you're having these conversations. And I was missing those, as was like a whole world.
And so, Jodi-Ann, and I just decided, let's, you know, let's meet for an outdoor lunch, let's just, you know, I know we're in the middle of a pandemic, let's do this safely masked and distant, and let's just get together because we miss being in community. At that time, we've known each other professionally on and off, but we certainly had never collaborated together. And I just mentioned, hey, I'm working on this piece would love your thoughts, would love your ideas. And Jodi-Ann just had so much of background in both sort of reading the original study and had like, fully formed, like ideas and thoughts about how that original study in 1978, to where we were in 2020, you know, sort of the arc of how imposter syndrome and phenomenon turned syndrome had showed up in our society. And as we were having this conversation, it felt like that those missing pieces just clicked into place. And the article came out in February of the next year. So I mean, it took a good six months, right from the time you and I then met to it finally publishing, it went through 4000 words being whittled down to whatever the final article is, half of it. But I think it's so much better for it. And if I think of what I wish we had explored, like, I can't think of anything that I wish we had explored in that original piece that is currently missing, and I believe we will write a follow-up, it is on its way.
Sonia Paul 32:35
Yeah, cuz I'm like, what's on the cutting room floor? You know, you always want to know.
Jodi-Ann Burey 32:39
What's left there will definitely get picked up for sure. And, you know, absolutely Ruchika, that is exactly how our meeting went down. And it was really cool for me to hear about what that pre-story was, because my part of this picks up at the lunch that we had. And my pre-life before this life-changing lunch. In all seriousness, right, I think that lunch really definitely changed the trajectory of my work. But I was in a period of my life where I was very dedicated to finding my voice and being unapologetic about it. Or I wouldn't say maybe finding my voice, but giving more space for the voice that I had that for so long, had been tempered because of the workplaces that I was in. And so I was on a mission to fight for my voice, whatever that would cost. And I started toying with ideas in my head of what are just some things I don't agree with. And I want to be as clear about it as that. Like, no, this is BS. I don't cosign this at all, and just be very definitive. And I had started exploring the sense of bringing your full authentic self to work and been doing a lot of thinking and reading around that. My TED talk is about that. And as I was forming those ideas, I was like, you know what else I don't agree with, imposter syndrome!
Like, I surprisingly found the article. It's available. There's no paywall on it, like anyone can read it, and really started thinking through like, why doesn't this resonate with me and had done a couple of public talks on it, but didn't really have a large platform at that time. So I wasn't doing a speaking/writing full-time yet. And so being able to meet with Ruchika, and once you said imposter syndrome, like you're absolutely right, I was just like, like, I just like, I think I dumped on you for like 10 minutes of all these things that I thought about it. So I was just so excited to find someone who was also on the same wavelength as me. Because there's so many women, they're like, you know, I have imposter syndrome and I experienced imposter syndrome, and I found myself in those meetings like rolling my eyes like, girl, stop. But then to talk to Ruchika, who also wanted to push back against it, it just made me so excited. And it was just such a wonderful and generative partnership and collaboration, and it's been incredible to continue to think and expand this idea with you as we continue to engage off the page on it.
Ruchika Tulshyan 35:04
Yeah. Thank you. Sonia, can I ask Jodi-Ann a question? Actually, if you don't mind?
Jodi-Ann Burey 35:08
Oh, God.
Ruchika Tulshyan 35:11
So I'm curious about — so a couple of things. Firstly, like when I think of your TED Talk came out in November, the article didn't come out till February. Like I remember, the first time I watched I've literally had like goosebumps and tears and like, just like I felt so seen, right. And I hope that to some extent, that's what people feel some small modicum of that when they read the article, when they read the imposter syndrome article. Actually, you and your TED Talk, literally talk about like being almost like, shut down for bringing your authentic self to work. How does that impact imposter syndrome? And I'm curious how you said that you don't identify and you never did identify with imposter syndrome. And yet you describe this experience, as you were talking in your TED Talk, like I think I certainly felt and so many other people did. And now your talks been viewed a million times. So like, how do you reconcile this feeling of your authentic self is being literally shut down? And yet you have that resilience and that strength to not feel imposter syndrome? Like, I'm just wondering, how did you reconcile those two ideas?
Jodi-Ann Burey 36:20
Yeah, that's so interesting to put these in conversation with each other. And so thank you for asking that. I think, you know, over time in my academic experiences, and my professional experiences in trying to show up and getting excited about the job and getting excited about the work and just like ready to go, roll my sleeves up and get the work done. And that being a problem for a lot of people throughout my career. And so I think being a person of color, I think we have a socialization that allows us to see the water that we're swimming in a little bit more. And so it wasn't something that like professionally, I internalize. That, okay, there's something wrong with me, why I am not showing up in a way that gets me good performance reviews. For me was like, I feel to my core that I'm doing the right thing. And that is not being rewarded in the environments that I'm in.
Very early in my career, and I've talked about this a little bit before, the first three years of my adult career, I worked in majority Black and Latinx environments. And anytime, like I, you know, kind of messed up at work, I didn't feel like there was something wrong with me. I just felt like I was learning. It wasn't until I was in predominantly white environments where there was this feeling that there was just something wrong with me, like I was, you know, trying to fit a square into a circle, whatever that — what is that?
Sonia Paul 37:49
Fit a, fit a square into a round hole or something?
Jodi-Ann Burey 37:53
I have no idea what that is. So I think like, because I had such an environmental focus and trying to understand the context that I was in, I didn't necessarily internalize it. So then when I saw imposter syndrome, I'm like, wait, I've been busting my tail to be, quote, unquote, successful in these environments. And it just felt to me, like I was then supposed to question myself. And the more like, as we talk about being in predominantly white environments, but as I worked in predominantly white female environments, is when I got more exposure to this concept of imposter syndrome. And I'm like, absolutely not. It is not me. It's not me. I've been gaslit left, right, and center. And so — I think, yeah, when you have this experience of constantly trying to be yourself, and people telling you that that is not good enough, and you knowing that that's not true, it becomes harder then, to buy into this idea that I am a fraud.
Sonia Paul 39:03
Yeah, sorry. Also, I have to just like apologize to listeners, because I laughed when you said that you were hearing about imposter syndrome from all these white women.
Jodi-Ann Burey 39:13
Oh, that is funny. I don't know if, I don't think you should apologize.
Sonia Paul 39:17
Okay, this is interesting. But why? I mean, did you get any feedback from people who would identify as white women of like, why it became so inflamed for them if it's not the truth for the two of you and for a lot of other women who are able to diagnose actually like, what's going on behind the scenes?
Jodi-Ann Burey 39:39
I have a good answer for that. But I don't know the tone of your podcast.
Sonia Paul 39:44
I don't know, we, we are. We are about just telling the truth, but also having fun while telling the truth. Yeah.
Ruchika Tulshyan 39:52
I think what that means is go ahead, Jodi-Ann. Go for it.
Jodi-Ann Burey 39:56
The short of it is this. You know, people say, what would Josh do? Josh has killed whole communities, you know what I'm saying? Like, there's a sense of like, white patriarchy, white supremacy that I, I can't get anything out of it. Right. But for white women, there's something there for them. And so I think it creates this culture where it's easier to kind of fall in line with solutions that are not structural, because the structure is what keeps them at that second tear, right? At the right hand of the white dude. I think as women of color, and folks who continue to have layered marginalizations, there is nothing in the structure that is there for us. The structure was set up to keep us out. And so I think it makes it easier — and this is all generalizing here — for women of color, to reject the system, because there's really nothing there for us that wouldn't lead to the detriment of people who look like us.
Ruchika Tulshyan 41:08
I want to add that I think this is something I'd like to see more Asian women, especially Indian women, really learn and internalize from Black women and the liberation movements of Black people in this country, and actually really around the world, right. I've studied the anti-apartheid movement in South Africa as well. In fact, I think we have it in our own histories as well, if we look at the anti-colonial movements all over Asia, all over Africa, but especially in India. And somehow, when we come to this country, we're expected to fall in line. We're expected to uphold white supremacy and anti-Blackness, and we're taught that we're going to benefit from it. And then for I think, for some of us, you know, it's like, oh, we achieved the American dream, we lifted ourselves out of, you know, some semblance of poverty, or whatever it is, we were able to distance ourselves from the communities and the countries that we originally came from, for the American dream. So look at us, we should feel so proud of ourselves.
But I think for a lot of us, there's like a gaping hole. And in many ways, I'm horrified. And I'm so sad about the anti-Asian violence. And at the same time, this is the first time ever, in all the years, in the decade almost that I've been living in the United States, that people are actually talking about it. Because for so long, it was like, oh, Asians, they come to this country. They work hard, which by the way, “Asian” itself — terrible term. I mean, there's no nuance to it, how many countries? How many languages, how many religions? How many cultures? Are we talking about? Like, that's ridiculous that we are a catch-all, right. And we experience the greatest intergroup income deviation, right? On one hand, you've got Indian and Chinese, especially Taiwanese, Americans who are right at the top levels of income brackets in this country. And then in the same group, you have Burmese immigrants who are really experiencing huge levels of poverty and violence. So I just want to say that, I think that I would love to see, especially as this is, you know, Asian, AAPI Heritage Month, I think it's really important for more of us to examine how much we think proximity to white supremacy and anti-Blackness is going to benefit us, and how much work we need to do to dismantle those systems as well.
Sonia Paul 43:34
Yeah. And something I wanted to ask, especially given that so much of this is about, like these structural systemic toxicities, or toxins, whatever is the appropriate word. Um, and, you know, women of color rejecting that, well, you know, I can speak for my industry, journalism, audio, there's a lot of people just being like, hey, forget this. I'm leaving. We're like seeing like an exodus of people from a variety of institutions. And I'm just wondering if you have any thoughts about the significance of that when we are still actually trying to drive for structural change? And if that's coming from these very women who are leaving? What, then?
Ruchika Tulshyan 44:19
Yeah, I mean, I think we're ripe for a change in the world right now, as Jodi-Ann said. I think we are ripe for that change, where more of us step into our power. We connect as a group, we build our tribes, right. And I'm very, very excited that I see that happening more and more. As Jodi-Ann and I talked about in the article, we rejected fundamentally white supremacist workplace structures to create our own as entrepreneurs, and I really think the next wave of success, quote-unquote, is going to come from more of us doing that.
Sonia Paul 44:55
Is there anything else the two of you want to add before you wrap up?
Jodi-Ann Burey 44:59
I think we're good. I'm super excited about this collaboration. As I said, I'm excited that the work continues to lap the globe. And people are thinking differently about, you know, how they see themselves in the workplaces. And I'm just happy to be a part of this wave of being more honest about what our work cultures look like and what it's going to take for women, especially women of color, to fully show up in the power that we have to change our culture.
Sonia Paul 45:33
Thank you both so much for this.
So that's all we have for today of Loitering, the occasional but lovable traveling mini pod I am currently testing in newsletter format. Thank you for listening and have a great day. Goodbye!
Here is a direct link to the Harvard Business Review article that inspired this conversation, and the study in question that inspired Ruchika and Jodi-Ann’s research.
And if you’re interested in some other work I’ve been up to…
In early April, a story I reported on the future of the restaurant industry published with the San Francisco Public Press. I also hosted a 3-part series on the topic for the Press’ podcast, “Civic.” You can read the story AND listen to those episodes here (the podcast episodes are embedded in the text story).
Also in April, a non-narrated audio story I produced about the history of Filipino nursing in the U.S. published with a new media outlet called iPondr. Check it out here.
And here’s a multimedia project I worked on for The Washington Post about some lessons learned from the pandemic on how we should think about public transit. I was just one part of a team effort. Hope you’ll read AND listen (a lot of loitering took place on my part for that project).
Loitering on 🔥 Imposter Syndrome🔥 With Ruchika Tulshyan and Jodi-Ann Burey